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We could debate some of the details but my main point remains and it is this. Some of the guides to sex conduct in the OT we continue to accept [no adultery for example] others we do not [more than one wife allowed, sex during a woman's period is wrong etc]
Given this divide I asked two questions in effect.
a] How do you decide which category a rule/guide goes into?
b] Why are you do sure that faithful gay sex goes in the first and not the second?
Natural or not
Let me tell you some things that are natural. Seducing the pretty wife next door - if I could. Revenging myself on a enemy. Not living more than 70 years. All natural but the first two are wrong and it is OK to live beyond one's natural age.
Lots of unnatural things are right or permissible - loving one's enemy, playing football, wearing glasses [most unnatural - the nose is for breathing not to support glasses!]
You equations NATURAL = GOOD & UNNATURAL = BAD sound plausible but they are incorrect.
As to gays and breeding. Have you not heard that there is a problem of overpopulation? And, of course, not everyone is gay to no doubt humanity will keep going. In the sort of society that the OT was written for, perhaps it was appropriate that people had as many children as they could. The present day situation is the opposite.
Best wishes
Q
Email: mgt.harris@btinternet.com
You confuse much --knowing so little about God and His laws.
1 John 5:16-17 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
As you say: Adultery is wrong and a sin unto death. Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
There is always mercy available even in OT times.
Sex during a womans period produces uncleaness for a period of time and is not a sin unto death: Leviticus 15:24 And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean.
Some things are unpreferred yet allowed --but remain not expedient.
As for polygamy, God never intended man to take multiple wives. Man did so out of his own desires and God suffered it to minimize sin. It also is not a 'sin unto death.'
God loves us, and for a time winked at ignorance, but will not tolerate wilful sinning in His children.
God's holiness and righteous character do not change. Yet He is full of mercy: Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Laurie, as I have yold you for years. Faulty reasoning yields faulty conclusions. Lets just say some around here need to work on their ability to reason regarding holy things.
Romans 8:5-14 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Email: TruthOnWeb@aol.com
OK you are making a start but you are not too convincing.
Polygamy was accepted in the OT, indeed commanded of certain people. Now you say that God allowed it to minimise sin. There is not the slightest indication in the OT that this is the case. It is simply an assertion on your behalf to save your case.
As to your two types of sin. I am not interested here about the gravity of the sin but simply whether it is right or wrong. And it is not wrong, whatever the OT says to make love while a woman has her period. Nor is semen unclean etc. This is simply old fashioned gobble****ok and your reclassification of them as sins but not unto death does not help. They are not sins at all!
In any case if God allowed certain things because of the way people were then gay Christians can and DO say:
"A small agrarian people living surrounded by hostile neighbours needed to have lots of children so maybe then God allowed their prejuidce against gays. Maybe it WAS wrong then because all should have kids if they could.
But times have changed and overpopulation is the problem so gay sex between the small proportion of people who are gay is OK provided it is within the context of a love relationship."
It is surely a nonsense to use the rules laid down for people living in very different circumstances and say they apply today. Indeed so nonsensical is it that even Bible Christians do not REALLY believe it otherwise they would be condemning farmers who planted apple trees and pear trees in the same field. Bible Christians say plenty of bizarre things but they do not quite go that far!!!
Best wishes
Laurie
Email: mgt.harris@btinternet.com
Laurie said "And it is not wrong, whatever the OT says to make love while a woman has her period. Nor is semen unclean etc. This is simply old fashioned gobble****ok and your reclassification of them as sins but not unto death does not help. They are not sins at all!
You have rejected the word of God for your own beliefs.
Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
John 3:18-19 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Deuteronomy 1:32 Yet in this thing ye did not believe the LORD your God,
2 Kings 17:14-15 Notwithstanding they would not hear, but hardened their necks, like to the neck of their fathers, that did not believe in the LORD their God. And they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and his testimonies which he testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that were round about them, concerning whom the LORD had charged them, that they should not do like them.
Psalms 78:22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:
Jeremiah 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.
Jeremiah 8:9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?
Hosea 4:6-8 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame. They eat up the sin of my people, and they set their heart on their iniquity.
Luke 7:30-35 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like? They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept. For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! But wisdom is justified of all her children.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Email: TruthOnWeb@aol.com
Let me try to understand you here then.
1. Do YOU think that semen is 'unclean' rather than just messy? YES/NO?
2. Do YOU think that it is always wrong to make love during a woman's period? YES/NO?
3. Do you think that it is wrong always to plant two different types of seed in the same field? YES/NO?
4. Do you think that, if you were living with your brother and he died leaving no children, you ought to marry his widow [even if you were married already!] and it would be sinful for either of you to refuse?
YES/NO?
It seems to me that you are answering 'YES' to them all and I just want to check that this is correct.
Thanks
Laurie
Email: mgt.harris@btinternet.com
YES
YES
YES
Yes if not married.
---------------------
Let me ask you some YES/NO questions as well.
1.) Do you believe in God?
2.) Do you believe in Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, as our Savior?
3.) Are you secure in your salvation?
4.)
A.)Do you come to Christian boards to honestly learn?
B.) OR Do you come to Christian Boards to try to weaken their faith to the same status as yours?
Email: TruthOnWeb@aol.com
Well Ken you certainly are consistent! I have never yet met a Christian who thought that a farmer, who planted apple trees and pear trees in the same field, was a sinner. But now I have.
Or one who thought that he OUGHT to marry his brother's widow. By the way this last the Bible implies should happen even if you are already married so, I assume, that if you lived in Saudi, you would go ahead and marry your brother's wife.
Your view is consistent and it seems to me that if your magic book tells you 2+3= 7 then that is indeed what it does equal because 'God said it'. So if the Bible tells us to do something that is evil, never mind, God says do it, so I will and it must be good anyway. This means that you do, or approve of, lots of things that are evil. Marrying your brothers widow if you did not love her and if you had a wife of your own would be wrong. Hang on 'no' it cannot be because the Bible says...
More seriously it is exactly what the 9/11 terrorists would have said, 'God says it so it is right'. There is something very dangerous about giving over your moral sense to a magic book. You might just as well not have a conscience.
Best wishes
Laurie
Answers to your questions.
1. No*
2. No*
3. I do not know what the question means.
4. A and B are not the only alternatives. I come onto Christian boards because
a] I enjoy a discussion with friendly people.
b] I might be wrong and discussion helps to find this out.
c] Although I do not believe I am very interested to learn about the different types of Christian.
* Of course I might be mistaken about these matters and am open to conviction.
Email: mgt.harris@btinternet.com
Who are you to say what is "good?" You measure by your own standards. A foolish measure indeed.
And when all else fails...and maybe YOU feel backed into a tight spot with no new smart words only bland old perverted rhetoric ... you resort to implying I am like terrorists. Cheap shot ... doesn't carry any weight here - Christians ...TRUE Christians are non violent when their faith is attacked ... well that is ...until the Son of God returns as in Jude 1:14-15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Email: TruthOnWeb@aol.com
No Ken I do not think you are like the Muslim terrorists in that you advocate violence. I am quite sure that you do not. Nor did I mean to say that you were. Sorry you got this impression.
[Though I am sure you approve of God's actions in killing all the people, men, women and children, in an Amalakite city - a very gross and evil act of ethnic cleansing.]
But where you are like them is this. You give up your moral sense to what you think you find in your holy book. You do this because you think it is God's word and so this must override your conscience. They misguidedly thought that God in their Holy Book told them to kill and their reasons were like yours , "Who am I to argue with God?"
Furthermore you have to admit that past and present Christians have committed violent and wrong actions because they thought that God was telling them to do them. The Crusades are an obvious example.
What could we say to these people? Well I suggest we might say to them that they had got God's views wrong and that, if they listened to their God-given conscience they might find this out.
Even you, obviously a good and pleasant person, think some shocking things because of what you think that God has told you.
Let me illustrate. I know a person who has been in a relationship for 20 years. They are model citizens and good in every way so far as humans can be. Their mutual love supports each other and is a shining example of what self-giving human love can be. Nobody who sees it but does not wish that their love for their partner was as fine. If you saw them and knew them you would be on your knees thanking God for it and asking him to bless you in the same way.
At least you would if I was talking about a married couple. However they are a same sex couple and so you would declare their wonderful love an abomination and would separate them if you could. Indeed as a believer in the OT literally, you think they ought to be killed for their 'crime'!
What makes you advocate such an appalling nonsense? Answer: you THINK you know God's mind on this.
Well, perhaps, perhaps, you should reconsider exactly what God does think on this. One way to do this would be to consult your conscience and see what it says about the couple just described. After all perhaps God speaks through it too?
Best wishes. Please do not be offended by the above. I am just trying to point out a serious danger in the type of thinking you have here.
Laurie
Email: mgt.harris@btinternet.com
This is a much more plain communication. Thanks for being straight(no pun here)with me.
First of all, just because people call themselves "Christian" does not make them Christian (belonging to Christ). The way to the Kingdom is a very narrow path ... the bible says FEW find it. I doubt you have met many real non-hypocritical Christians in your journeys. The evil that perpetuated the Crusades and inquisitions was not from God but from the evil hearts of men cloaked in false religion. God did not appear in the pillar of fire and tell these men to do these things.
As for God instructing Israel to cast out their enemies - this was all prophetic. It pictures the endtimes how the righteous believers with Christ will dispossess the effeminate, sodomites, idolaters, murderers, unbelievers, etc.
God is God. He is the Creator and yet some of His pottery complains at Him. Does not the potter have the right to destroy His work at will? Does He not have the power to recreate the pottery into a better work? We cannot judge God by our standards. We must judge ourselves by His.
As for love. There are 3 kinds of love: erotic, brotherly, godly. We can all love each other with the two 'higher' of the three. The carnal erotic love is lowest on the scale and is forbidden by same-sex humans, humans and beasts, etc. Sex is reserved only between a married (God-joined)man and woman to create offspring for the purpose of them learning to know and worship God.
Because godly love, especially Love for God and from God, is higher it needs to take priority. God needs to be first in any persons heart. If a gay person love God he/she should cast aside their own desires to manifest their love for God. God is their Creator and he knows us inside and out. He knows for what purpose He created us (believe me it is not gay sex).
Your lack of belief in God does not make Him any less real. The misrepresentation of God by false Christians does not make Him any less holy nor any less God.
You are free to live your life by your opinions - why is that? Because God made you able to do so. But O Man realize that for every work God will bring each person into judgment ... not by their own reasoning but by His holy wisdom.
Email: TruthOnWeb@aol.com
Thanks for your reply. Here are my responses:
1. You do not answer my main point which was that your acceptance of the Bible [as you interpret it]as your sole criteria for what is right and wrong neglects your conscience as another and, you surely think, God Given, source of information about right and wrong. One way to ask what a particular passage means might be to look at what your conscience says about the matter.
2. Small minority to be saved? Yes, every sect and tiny branch of Christianity says or has said this. No doubt it provided great comfort when you find that few agree with you. Trouble is that it takes a lot of 'pride/temerity' to assume that YOU are the minority referred to and all the others are mistaken. Particularly when they say the same thing.
3. Potters and clay. I have never been impressed by this argument. If a powerful being brings me to life that does not mean that whatever that being requires me to do is good. It is possible for God to be omnipotent and bad surely? IF there was a God who had made us and who commanded us to hate each other, would you say that this was therefore right? I know you do not think that God is like this but if he were you would not agree that 'whatever he said was right because he made us' so it cannot be that THAT is the reason we ought to obey him.
3. Erotic love within a relationship between two adults who love each other expresses that love and indeed is a part of it. We are a mind and a body and you cannot slice off the bodily part of love and put into a separate compartment. To deny physical love to committed gay partners is very wicked and a case where your old fashioned view of the bible is silencing the voice of your conscience.
4. Certainly, if God exists, my disbelief will not alter that. However if he makes himself so obscure that honest people cannot see his existence then I am sure he will not complain if some cannot believe. And as I am sorry for wrong things I have done I am sure he would accept my repentance. He would be a monster otherwise.
Best wishes
Laurie
Email: mgt.harris@btinternet.com