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Re: What does Paul say about gay sex?

Anybody with God's holy spirit knows the truth.

God created Adam and Eve ... NOT Adam and Steve.

Notice in the following passage that Paul wrote by the spirit that all fornicators (hetero and homo) do not get to enter the kingdom of God. Notice that the 'effeminate'also do not enter into the kingdom of God. Notice that 'abusers of themselves with mankind' or "sodomites" (as Young's Literal translation correctly shows)also will not make it into God's kingdom.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Notice also that some saints WERE many of these sinful people but they REPENTED and TURNED from their sin and were washed in the blood of the Lamb to be made clean. They ceased to walk after the flesh and sin. So should all sinners before the Son of God returns.

Email: totw@truthontheweb.org

Re: Re: What does Paul say about gay sex?

Dear Ken,

Thanks for this reply. It is nice to talk with you again and also I am grateful that you have allowed me to have a password to access your forum.

I have a little problem with your reply here because I made some points about the texts in Paul which you have just not considered. Of course I might be incorrect in what I said but you surely have to explain why? You just make new points.

However [unlike your good self!] I will try to deal with your point. I'll leave Adam and Steve if you don't mind to consider Paul.

Of course you do not accept everything that Paul says as literally written in the Bible because you would not have women speaking in church and would accept slavery. No doubt for these you would say that we ought to attend to the principles behind what he says and also that he was writing to specific situations. My claim is that we must do the same here.

Paul is obviously hitting at promiscuous sex - sex without love - in the context of lots of other immoral behaviour too. 'Abusers of themselves with sodomites' is usually thought to refer to men using young male prostitutes [rent boys] and, if so, does not refer then to sex used to express love between faithful gay partners. Fornication means sexual intercourse which is not allowed and we are discussing if faithful gay sex is allowed or not so, again, it is not clear what the text means.

It would be nice to hear what you think of these points and my earlier ones.

Best wishes

Q

Email: mgt.harris@btinternet.com

Re: Re: Re: What doesn't Paul say about gay sex?

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

What makes you think God did away with His holy laws against homosexuality? Jesus said in Matt 5:19 He did not come to do away with the law but to magnify it. You cannot pick a verse and decide what it means for you. You must be able to harmonize the text with its other related texts. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

Can you harmonize this text with your 'erroneous personal interpretation' of Paul? Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

I told you before that many find Paul hard to understand and that men, like you, may scoff and walk ungodly: 2 Peter 3:2-3 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,2 Peter 3:14-18 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


How did Paul define marriage? Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7:33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his WIFE.

Thats wife NOT significant other, same-sex partner, or other homosexual terminology for their unnatural practices. Maybe you can explain why Paul is silent on encouraging men/men 'love' (perverted)relations? If it is acceptable why is it not praised? I almost refrain from answering this folly so you do not persist in it but so be it.

As I said, you cannot reason the mind of God because you will not submit to His Word. You want to bend His Word to fit what you, an imperfect man, thinks is right. You should bend your knee instead to Him and obey His word in holiness. Without holiness it is impossible to see the Lord.

Laurie, I know my words and point may come across hard to you. I only mean you well and no harm. I have learned that you only inquire things to try to win people to your liberal views. You are not really seeking God's will but He is there if you ever do ...but don't dally as you never know when your number will be up.

You are welcome for the password and of course you may continue to post with others on this board. Have a reflective day.

Email: TruthOnWeb@aol.com

Harmonising

is very hard! And it is your job really.

How do you harmonise your view that polygamy is wrong with the Bible clear acceptance of it? Do you think it would be right to marry your brother's wife if he died? Are women refused the right to speak in your church? Are farmers who attend your church told they will go to Hell if they sew more than one type of seed in a field? Shall I go on?

All these texts need to be harmonised with the text you gave saying that God does not change.

When YOU tell me how harmonisation is to be acheived in these cases I will tell you that we can harmonise
St Paul's verses interpreted as gay Christians do in the same way.

Over to you.

Good wishes

Laurie

Email: mgt.harris@btinternet.com

Re: Harmonising

Harmonizing is easy if you do not rebell against God's word. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.

Where do you find polygamy COMMANDED in the bible? I tell you just because God allows you to do something does NOT mean he sanctioned it.

Polygamy is illegal in the US. God places all rulers into power and tell us to be subject to them as long as their laws do not directly conflict with God's own laws. If you lived in a country where polygamy was accepted and you think you can provide for multiple wives and all their needs and still serve God then have at it if your conscience allows.

You cannot understand God because you will not subject yourself to Him or His word. Nor do I believe you are trying to do so.

Lets read the verse you mention about a brother dying and you taking her to wife: Deuteronomy 25:5-6 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her. And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.

If you live with your brother (any near kin)and he dies then you should raise up a child in his name so his inheritance and birthright can be passed along. If you live with your brother you more than likely were not already married so again your premise is faulty yielding faulty conclusions.

If you really want to know God you need to begin with fear of Him and then repentance. You cannot learn the ways of God if you are placing forth your own doctrine instead of adhering to His.

Do you know ANY farmer who plants a field with mixed seeds? NO! They plant a field of wheat next to a field of barley and an orchard of apples next to an orchard of apricots. Where did that begin? The Word of God instructed men that this was good. Here is a quote to help you understand from the JFB Bible Commentary: This also was directed against an idolatrous practice, namely, that of the ancient Zabians, or fire-worshippers, who sowed different seeds, accompanying the act with magical rites and invocations; and commentators have generally thought the design of this and the preceding law was to put an end to the unnatural lusts and foolish superstitions which were prevalent among the heathen. But the reason of the prohibition was probably deeper: for those who have studied the diseases of land and vegetables tell us, that the practice of mingling seeds is injurious both to flowers and to grains. "If the various genera of the natural order Gramineæ, which includes the grains and the grasses, should be sown in the same field, and flower at the same time, so that the pollen of the two flowers mix, a spurious seed will be the consequence, called by the farmers chess. It is always inferior and unlike either of the two grains that produced it, in size, flavor, and nutritious principles. Independently of contributing to disease the soil, they never fail to produce the same in animals and men that feed on them" [WHITLAW].

I do care care to debate you as you have a carnal mind (no offense meant - just stating facts without judgement to condemnation)Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Email: TruthOnWeb@aol.com

Sophistries

Your points do not wash Ken. Let me take them one at a time.

1. Polygamy.
Many OT figures who were in close contact with God had more than one wife. God could have told them it was wrong. He did not apparently. The OT therefore clearly allows it.

I may be incorrect here but was there not an OT figure who already had a wife and God told him to take another? Your OT knowledge beats mine so you can tell me here.

In any case polygamy is plain wrong and we all know it and you are making a bad case worse by pretending that somehow the OT does not give it the thumbs up.

2. Marrying your brother's wife.
OK the text refers to the you living with your brother and, if so, you might be unmarried. BUT suppose you were living with your brother and you happened to be married [large house perhaps]. Or suppose you were single but your brother's widow did not love you enough to marry. Do you say in these circumstances that it is God's will that you marry her and it would be sinful not to? You MUST if you believe the Bible.

Please tell me then, would it or would it not be sinful? No evasions please.
[PS I bet though that you do avoid this question in some way]

3.Seeds in a field
Farmers who sow different seeds in the same field may be poor farmers but are they realy sinful? And farmers do some times plant different crops in the same field. Some flowers planted next to carrots draws harmful insects away from the carrots I'm told. These farmers are sinful? Orchards contain different types of tree quite often. Is that sinful?

I may have a carnal mind Ken but it can see that the reasons you gave did not answer my points but just pointed out occasions when the rules might be OK. But you ought to believe that they always apply.

Best wishes

Laurie

Email: mgt.harris@btinternet.com

Re: Sophistries

Look Laurie,

The kingdom of God is not found in debate. Either repent and believe the gospel or follow your own ways and ideas and perish. The choice is yours.

Email: TruthOnWeb@aol.com

That sounds like...

I have lost the argument?

Instead of answering the points I make, you say that you cannot or will not discuss. But you ONLY say this AFTER you HAVE ALREADY argued with me for a few posts and then found yourself in a tight corner?

Best wishes

Laurie

Email: mgt.harris@btinternet.com

Re: That sounds like...

Laurie, you have posted on my board for quite along time ... and never ... I repeat NEVER have I felt YOU or your blasphemous doctrine 'back me into a corner'. I consider time spent answering you to be casting pearl to swine and therefore I keep it brief and only interject when the spirit so moves me. Those exceptions in which I do post are usually for the benefits of others on the board that may be lurking so they know and can tell from whence you come.

I repeat myself: The kingdom of God cannot be found by debate. It manifests itself in changed lives and unshakeable faith. Oh, there are tares which look like wheat growing alongside the good plant -pretending to be Christian ... but as Jesus said "By their fruits you will know them."

Don't you have somthing better to do with your time? Or does the devil have you in his grips and commands you to attack the true faith? Just why DO you spend so much time here?

Email: TruthOnWeb@aol.com

Fair point and answer

Yes my last point was a cheap shot. It is kind of you to talk to an old reprobate like me.

I just meant that there seems to be two alternatives - discuss with me OR say I have a carnal and mind so there is no point. But to discuss and then stop saying 'there is no point' just when things are getting interesting...

As to my motivation I believe I have answered this below.

Laurie

Email: mgt.harris@btinternet.com

Thank You Ken

I do not feel quite so alone now. A long time ago I told this man that I would not respond to him any more. I knew his spirit and it was not one of "questioning", but it was one of intellectual gymnastics.

Good call.

Ron Harvey

Email: rsnm10@hotmail.com

Re: Thank You Ken

Ron you may think you know a lot about the Bible. You may think you know the mind of God. You may think you know who is going to Hell. You obviously think you know a lot of things!

However you have a confounded cheek to come on the internet and proclaim that you know my motivation. Not even you knows the inside of my mind and I'll trouble you to keep your speculations to ourself please.

However here is a very simple point.

A person can enjoy an interesting discussion AND have a sincere desire for truth.

The first does not exclude the second.

Best wishes

Laurie


PS If I was given to speculating about your motives I would say that you will not discuss with me because you cannot answer my questions!

Email: mgt.harris@btinternet.com

Re: Re: Thank You Ken

Questioner,
Please don't make the assumption that this guy "Ron" is an example of a true Christian. He is not. He is a poor excuse of a person who has some serious mental problems that he really needs to find professional help for.

True christians do not lie and are definitely not psychic making the claim that they can read minds. They cannot. However, christians do allow their heart to be their primary motivator.

Deist

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